Chaos Pact??

[Rude Slay]

A couple new pact teams this season and a few TBowl vets who have also tried them - so how do you feel about them? Is the short term pain worth the long term gain? Are they a good fit for a long term development B league team? Are they, as some have suggested, too unreliable with the three big guys? Has a Pact team realized its potential yet in TBowl? What does it take to make the Pact the best it can be? Will they ever win the TBowl?

Respectfully,
Rude 

[keggiemckill]

Long term Pact are interesting. I've only seen them online and min/maxed. Most coaches start getting rid of the Big guys after time, and build to Kill. I'm not into that type of play, but it is effective.

[Warpstone]

It can be pretty fun Gord, but I found Chaos Pact had a tough build curve:

Games 1-10 are fine. Get your 3d blocks in and you're usually in the game.
Games 11-20 are really tough. You're facing teams with combo-skilled positionals while you're still struggling to get enough block to the pitch.
Games 20-30 get better. Ideally one of your big guys has block by now. The team is so much more forgiving with block on at least one of them.

The downside of pact for me was that I found them very difficult to manage long-term in B-League. They're only AV8 for the most part, so even if your big guys do well, all your role players will start to get ground down. At 50k, replacement marauders are cheap, but unlike Elves, they skill up slowly and don't even have block like Norse linemen. As a result, it's really tough to keep fielding a skilled team in a bashy league. I'm sure someone else can figure it out better than me, but I found my team peaked around game 30 and then slowly lost the pieces it needed to really push for the title thereafter.

[Rude Slay]

I am glad you chimed in Kavin as you have by far the most TBowl league experience with Pact. I have looked at your Pact team and I can relate to the pain of losing developed players that will take seasons to replace - if they can be replaced at all. The Marauder normal skill options are enticing but if slow development forces more vanilla choices to stay competitive that dampens the enthusiasm somewhat. No disputing the utility and fun of out of the box skill players. Do you feel, as Keggie suggests, that dropping Big Guys in the later stages would be a better option (i.e. is a Mercenary, Wizard, Bomber or Chainsaw, while not guaranteed, a better equalizer via the Star Player & Inducement possibilities)? Knowing the importance of those hard to come by skills and the starting build options what would you do if you were starting over? 

[Rimmer]

They are tier 2 for a reason!

If you like to play challenging teams with no stunty (mostly) then this is the team for you.  Or perhaps you love to convert models, again a great team for you. 

The big guys look good on paper but can be very frustrating.  Marauders have potential, but only a few will make it and then they will become targets and die.  The elf has a tendency to hog all the SPP's which can be detrimental when he dies! 

As Kavin says, B league is tough as getting those maruaders leveled up takes a long time.  Probably a good team for the minors.

[MacPhee]

This is my first season with Pact.

On paper they are one of the best long term 'builder' teams with access to GSPM on their standard marauder lineman. With big guys taking S regular and GAPM on a doubles, it just takes two doubles (about 3 seasons) for a Block, Tentacles monster big guy. The slow build for sure; if you're in it for the long haul to build or like your big guys, it's a fun team.

There's a very versatile build in there somewhere with Extra Arms, Horns, Prehensile Tail, etc.

Even though AV8 is durable enough to build with there is attrition in B League.
As Kavin says - you're always behind.

This is similar to Chaos (games 1-10 are good with Horns, no Minotaur needed), but complete lack of starting skills on positionals put you at a disadvantage for Games 11-20 and 21-30.

By the time you're getting Block your opponent has 2.5 skills on the player you're blocking against, but you have 3 big guys and as much Guard as you want, so you really just need to be able to rock out with your big guys.

[Warpstone]

Do you feel, as Keggie suggests, that dropping Big Guys in the later stages would be a better option (i.e. is a Mercenary, Wizard, Bomber or Chainsaw, while not guaranteed, a better equalizer via the Star Player & Inducement possibilities)? Knowing the importance of those hard to come by skills and the starting build options what would you do if you were starting over?

Gord, I'm not sure there's any point to the team without the big guys. You live and die with them since marauders and the renegades don't offer a ton of options to break open a game. The trick with the big guys is to make sure they are involved in the play without actually depending on them. You tend not to land killer blows with them so much as chew up the opponents block dice and men so that they get stretched and vulnerable to a strike from highly specialized marauders (i.e. wrestle+tackle+frenzy, or block+strip ball+juggernaut). Anytime your plan revolves around the mino landing a blitz, that's desperation not a strategy. Three dice blocks are basically the underpinning of the whole team. If two out of three big guys get in a hit per turn or make base contact with a few linemen, you're generally going to do well.

A compromise in-line with Keller's suggestion  may make be to dump a big guy that doesn't get doubles by 16spp. If you can get block on two of them, you're suddenly playing whack-a-mole with most opponents. Depends on how much time you have to build. The Minors would have been great for my team.

Despite the options that GSPM access promises, block+guard on most marauders is probably the most useful build for accentuating the strengths of the team. If I had to start over, I'd mostly do the same build but develop more supporting marauders for defensive duties. I could never get the skaven to develop. Honestly, I still don't know what I would have done differently since I was always trying to win the current game rather than think about 10 games down the road. If my team were less competitive, it might have actually turned out better long-term as I would have tried harder to farm SPP to the marauders rather than bang in a secure TD for league points.

[poundfist]

Yeah that's always the balance, trying to skill up a team while also trying to win the game. Going for that "easy" completion can make the team or lose the game.

So far so good with my Pact. I was set back one Marauder but have earned 10 casualtes in 2 games. The Big Guys are hit or miss, but you gotta keep aiming for those 3d Blocks.

[Rimmer]

Long term Pact are interesting. I've only seen them online and min/maxed. Most coaches start getting rid of the Big guys after time, and build to Kill. I'm not into that type of play, but it is effective.

I think this is only an online thing.  It would be difficult to do in a real league.  Our league does run forever though so I suppose it is doable....

[Rude Slay]

Thanks for the replies guys. Early development looks encouraging for the new Pact teams. Thematically, I would love to play a Pact team but the mathematics make me wonder whether it is a good fit.

I have had the most fun playing Norse where every man has a chance to excel and comes with a skill but the often short lives does tend to cramp the long term (I wish the linemen came with Thick Skull for 60k). Adding Thick Skull via SPP is just not as viable considering the other options.

I experienced a lot of pain playing blanket Ag4 with High Elves before I was a good enough coach and I still am not a fan of such high priced players at all positions.

I thought overall that Undead are just too easy to play and so success and development with them seems like an empty accomplishment.

The Necromantic teams live or die on a thin cast (0 to 2) of positionals. A lot of fun to play but so much different when you have a couple of key MNGs.

Trying to find that balance between a team that has positive long term potential, still fun to play but is not as ponderous as Dwarves. 

[Rimmer]

On paper they are one of the best long term 'builder' teams with access to GSPM on their standard marauder lineman. With big guys taking S regular and GAPM on a doubles, it just takes two doubles (about 3 seasons) for a Block, Tentacles monster big guy. The slow build for sure; if you're in it for the long haul to build or like your big guys, it's a fun team.

That is getting quite a bit of luck.  Two double skills on one player.  I find even the big guys die on chaos pact (all of mine did on my pact team).  B league is a scary place.

the biggest problem is the linemen have nothing.  GSMP access seems great.  You will have visions of linemen with all these funky skills but it takes forever and you are often just trying to survive.  That usually means taking block gaurd or making a killer (Claw, MB, Piling On, etc.)  And then you get to the magical third skill and the player dies or gets gimped.  It is also really hard to level up linemen in B league, so hopefully C league goes well for you.

I also found they are not as bashy as they seem.  True bash teams are better as they are reliable.  Killer blitzers are better than big guys.  Block is the best skill for a reason, and you have none of it.

I do not mean to discourage you Rude Slay, just to make sure your expectations are realistic.  I do think the team idea is fun and it is a great perpetual team with tons of modelling fun if that is your thing.  You will most likely be middle of the pack.

I disagree with Kavin about the Skaven.  I would play with one.  The 7 move is valuable and he makes a good blitzer.  Wrestle / horns is a good combo on him.  Just don't be surprised if he dies a lot.

My last piece of advice is to look at the database of exiting teams.  See how well the players have developed vs. the games played.  Real teams are the best to look at if you want to get a gauge of how a team develops.

[Rimmer]

I thought overall that Undead are just too easy to play and so success and development with them seems like an empty accomplishment.

The Necromantic teams live or die on a thin cast (0 to 2) of positionals. A lot of fun to play but so much different when you have a couple of key MNGs.

Trying to find that balance between a team that has positive long term potential, still fun to play but is not as ponderous as Dwarves.

So you are looking for a challenging team with a variety of styles of play and not too costly? 

Humans seem to fit that description.  They are cheap, have good positionals, can play all styles, and are challenging.  Chaos Pact is more bashy/random while humans are better at scoring and are more reliable. 

They do have totally different styles of play though.  Linemen on humans are more fodder and the team relys on the positionals.  For the Pact, no one is reliable but the dark elf at the start but in the long term you will have some killers and the potential for some weird / unique players.

[Rude Slay]

So you are looking for a challenging team with a variety of styles of play and not too costly? 

Humans seem to fit that description.  They are cheap, have good positionals, can play all styles, and are challenging.  Chaos Pact is more bashy/random while humans are better at scoring and are more reliable. 

They do have totally different styles of play though.  Linemen on humans are more fodder and the team relys on the positionals.  For the Pact, no one is reliable but the dark elf at the start but in the long term you will have some killers and the potential for some weird / unique players.

Humans totally fit the bill but they have seen a lot of league play and as you say they rely heavily on positionals. I suppose that the glory roles (zippy catchers and star blitzers) conjure up class separation, social inequity and such, the more so when they are not some fantastical werewolf or vampire. Who knew the game was so pervasive upon one's conscience ;-)

If you think Pact are a challenge consider my suppressed urge (stop self flagellation) to play Ogres because I have a great theme for them.

Another part of me likes Slann because their linemen can become great players and they are certainly different from other teams.

Then another voice says screw it, just play Skaven and have some fun, win or lose, though perhaps not the best way to hone one's coaching ability. 

[keggiemckill]

I wouldn't suggest dropping the Big Guys. It's the only team where you can have more than one without having Stunty. I think they are quite a good team. I just don't care for their build style much. I'm in the midst of making a set of them right now.